Discussion:
zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL
(too old to reply)
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-15 16:00:15 UTC
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Raw Message
So, I hear, in a couple weeks' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down. What does that mean for this mailing list? Should we all be moving over to something at illumos or something?

I'm going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris to respond...
I'm going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.

Thanks for any info ...
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-16 16:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In the absence of any official response, I guess we just have to assume this list will be shut down, right?
So I guess we just have to move to the illumos mailing list, as Deirdre suggests?



From: zfs-discuss-***@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss-***@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:00 AM
To: zfs-***@opensolaris.org
Subject: [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL

So, I hear, in a couple weeks' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down. What does that mean for this mailing list? Should we all be moving over to something at illumos or something?

I'm going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris to respond...
I'm going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.

Thanks for any info ...
Tim Cook
2013-02-16 16:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
In the absence of any official response, I guess we just have to assume
this list will be shut down, right?****
So I guess we just have to move to the illumos mailing list, as Deirdre
suggests?****
** **
** **
** **
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
*Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2013 11:00 AM
*Subject:* [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL****
** **
So, I hear, in a couple weeks' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down.
What does that mean for this mailing list? Should we all be moving over to
something at illumos or something?****
** **
I'm going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris to
respond...****
I'm going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts
etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.****
** **
Thanks for any info ...****
That would be the logical decision, yes. Not to poke fun, but did you
really expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle?
This is the same company that refused to release any Java patches until
the DHS issued a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.

--Tim
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-16 17:21:09 UTC
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Raw Message
That would be the logical decision, yes.  Not to poke fun, but did you really
expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle?  This is the
same company that refused to release any Java patches until the DHS issued
a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.
Well, yes. We do have oracle employees who contribute to this mailing list. It is not accurate or fair to stereotype the whole company. Oracle by itself is as large as some cities or countries.

I can understand a company policy of secrecy about development direction and stuff like that. I would think somebody would be able to officially confirm or deny that this mailing list is going to stop. At least one of their system administrators lurks here...
Bob Friesenhahn
2013-02-16 17:32:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
That would be the logical decision, yes.  Not to poke fun, but did you really
expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle?  This is the
same company that refused to release any Java patches until the DHS issued
a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.
Well, yes. We do have oracle employees who contribute to this
mailing list. It is not accurate or fair to stereotype the whole
company. Oracle by itself is as large as some cities or countries.
Yes, these remaining employees do so because they still can. Except
for those employees brave enough to post to Illumos/OpenIndiana lists
(there are some), there will be no more avenues remaining for
unmoderated two-way communication with the outside world. There have
been some cases where people said unfavorable things about Oracle on
this list. Oracle needs to control its message and the principle form
of communication will be via private support calls authorized by
service contracts and authorized corporate publications.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
***@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
Tim Cook
2013-02-16 17:44:59 UTC
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On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
Post by Tim Cook
Post by Tim Cook
That would be the logical decision, yes. Not to poke fun, but did you
really
Post by Tim Cook
expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle? This is
the
Post by Tim Cook
same company that refused to release any Java patches until the DHS
issued
Post by Tim Cook
a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.
Well, yes. We do have oracle employees who contribute to this mailing
list. It is not accurate or fair to stereotype the whole company. Oracle
by itself is as large as some cities or countries.
I can understand a company policy of secrecy about development direction
and stuff like that. I would think somebody would be able to officially
confirm or deny that this mailing list is going to stop. At least one of
their system administrators lurks here...
We've got Oracle employees on the mailing list, that while helpful, in no
way have the authority to speak for company policy. They've made that
clear on numerous occasions And that doesn't change the fact that we
literally have heard NOTHING from Oracle since the closing of OpensSolaris.
0 official statements, so I once gain ask: what do you think you were
going to get in response to your questions?

The reason you hear nothing from them on anything official is because it's
a good way to lose your job.

--Tim
Sašo Kiselkov
2013-02-16 20:51:40 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Tim Cook
We've got Oracle employees on the mailing list, that while helpful, in no
way have the authority to speak for company policy. They've made that
clear on numerous occasions And that doesn't change the fact that we
literally have heard NOTHING from Oracle since the closing of OpensSolaris.
0 official statements, so I once gain ask: what do you think you were
going to get in response to your questions?
The reason you hear nothing from them on anything official is because it's
a good way to lose your job.
People, let's get down to brass tax here. Either:

1) You will continue to get zfs-***@opensolaris.org e-mail after
March 24th and can carry on as before, or
2) You won't, in which case we welcome everybody at
***@lists.illumos.org.

It's really that simple.

Cheers,
--
Saso
Toby Thain
2013-02-17 05:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sašo Kiselkov
Post by Tim Cook
We've got Oracle employees on the mailing list, that while helpful, in no
way have the authority to speak for company policy. They've made that
clear on numerous occasions And that doesn't change the fact that we
literally have heard NOTHING from Oracle since the closing of OpensSolaris.
0 official statements, so I once gain ask: what do you think you were
going to get in response to your questions?
The reason you hear nothing from them on anything official is because it's
a good way to lose your job.
March 24th and can carry on as before, or
2) You won't, in which case we welcome everybody at
Signed up, thanks.

The ZFS list has been very high value and I thank everyone whose wisdom
I have enjoyed, especially people like you Sašo, Mr Elling, Mr
Friesenhahn, Mr Harvey, the distinguished Sun and Oracle engineers who
post here, and many others.

Let the Illumos list thrive.

--Toby
Post by Sašo Kiselkov
It's really that simple.
Cheers,
--
Saso
_______________________________________________
zfs-discuss mailing list
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Ian Collins
2013-02-17 05:40:47 UTC
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Post by Toby Thain
Signed up, thanks.
The ZFS list has been very high value and I thank everyone whose wisdom
I have enjoyed, especially people like you Sašo, Mr Elling, Mr
Friesenhahn, Mr Harvey, the distinguished Sun and Oracle engineers who
post here, and many others.
Let the Illumos list thrive.
This list certainly has been high value for ZFS users (I think I
subscribed the day is started!).

One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic. We see
Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give
the same respect.

I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
--
Ian.
Bryan Horstmann-Allen
2013-02-17 06:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| On 2013-02-17 18:40:47, Ian Collins wrote:
|
Post by Ian Collins
One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic. We see
Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give the
same respect.
I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
As the guy who provides the illumos mailing list services, and as someone who
has deeply vested interests in seeing ZFS thrive on all platforms, I'm happy to
suggest that we'd welcome all comers on ***@lists.illumos.org.

The more brains in one place, the better.
--
bdha
cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk.
Richard Elling
2013-02-17 06:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bryan Horstmann-Allen
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post by Ian Collins
One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic. We see
Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give the
same respect.
I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
As the guy who provides the illumos mailing list services, and as someone who
has deeply vested interests in seeing ZFS thrive on all platforms, I'm happy to
+1
-- richard
--
ZFS and performance consulting
http://www.RichardElling.com
Ian Collins
2013-02-17 06:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bryan Horstmann-Allen
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post by Ian Collins
One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic. We see
Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give the
same respect.
I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
As the guy who provides the illumos mailing list services, and as someone who
has deeply vested interests in seeing ZFS thrive on all platforms, I'm happy to
+1
Me to.

One list is certainly better than >1!
--
Ian.
Sašo Kiselkov
2013-02-17 12:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Collins
Post by Toby Thain
Signed up, thanks.
The ZFS list has been very high value and I thank everyone whose wisdom
I have enjoyed, especially people like you Sašo, Mr Elling, Mr
Friesenhahn, Mr Harvey, the distinguished Sun and Oracle engineers who
post here, and many others.
Let the Illumos list thrive.
This list certainly has been high value for ZFS users (I think I
subscribed the day is started!).
One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic. We see
Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give
the same respect.
I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
Despite having a "lists.illumos.org" DNS name, the Illumos ZFS list
isn't just about Illumos. We have regular contributions from the FreeBSD
and ZOL folks, they are on the list and we frequently use it to exchange
contributions. For example, when I got LZ4 compression integrated,
within a few days those changes were pulled into both FreeBSD and ZOL -
I'd say the community is pretty active!

Cheers,
--
Saso
Sriram Narayanan
2013-02-16 16:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
In the absence of any official response, I guess we just have to assume this
list will be shut down, right?
So I guess we just have to move to the illumos mailing list, as Deirdre suggests?
Or, given that this is a weekend, we assume that someone within Oracle
would see this mail only on Monday morning Pacific Time, then send out
some mails within, and be able to respond in public only by Wednesday
evening Pacific Time at best.

-- Sriram
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:00 AM
Subject: [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL
So, I hear, in a couple weeks' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down. What
does that mean for this mailing list? Should we all be moving over to
something at illumos or something?
I'm going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris to respond...
I'm going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts etc
simply trying to get people to jump this list.
Thanks for any info ...
_______________________________________________
zfs-discuss mailing list
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
--
Belenix: www.belenix.org
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-16 17:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sriram Narayanan
Or, given that this is a weekend, we assume that someone within Oracle
would see this mail only on Monday morning Pacific Time, then send out
some mails within, and be able to respond in public only by Wednesday
evening Pacific Time at best.
I remembered to take that into account. Question was posted Friday morning, EST. And not every oracle employee subscribes here with their work email address. Nor does everyone limit themselves to conversing in the community during only business hours.

Don't forget Monday's a holiday.
Bob Friesenhahn
2013-02-16 16:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
So, I hear, in a couple weeks' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down.  What does that mean for this mailing list?  Should we
all be moving over to something at illumos or something?
There is a 'illumos-zfs' list for illumos. Please see
"http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Mailing+Lists" for
the available lists. Most open discussion of zfs occurs on the
illumos list, although there is also useful discussion on the
freebsd-fs list at freebsd.org.
I'm going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris to respond...
I'm going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.
Good for you. I am sure that Larry will be contacting you soon.

Previously Oracle announced and invited people to join their
discussion forums, which are web-based and virtually dead.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
***@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-16 17:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob Friesenhahn
Good for you. I am sure that Larry will be contacting you soon.
hehehehehe... he knows better. ;-)
Post by Bob Friesenhahn
Previously Oracle announced and invited people to join their
discussion forums, which are web-based and virtually dead.
Invited people with paid support contracts.
cindy swearingen
2013-02-16 21:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hey Ned and Everyone,

This was new news to use too and we're just talking over some options
yesterday
afternoon so please give us a chance to regroup and provide some
alternatives.

This list will be shutdown but we can start a new one on java.net. There is
a huge
ecosystem around Solaris and ZFS, particularly within Oracle. Many of us
are still
here because we are passionate about ZFS, Solaris 11 and even Solaris 10. I
think we have a great product and a lot of info to share.

If you're interested in a rejuvenated ZFS discuss list on java.net, then
drop me a note:
***@oracle.com

We are also considering a new ZFS page in that community as well. Oracle is
very
committed to Solaris and ZFS, but they want to consolidate their community
efforts on
java.net, retire some old hardware, and so on.

If you are an Oracle customer with a support contract and you are using
Solaris and ZFS,
and you want to discuss support issues, you should consider that list as
well:

https://communities.oracle.com/portal/server.pt/community/oracle_solaris_zfs_file_system/526

Thanks, Cindy

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
So, I hear, in a couple weeks' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down.
What does that mean for this mailing list? Should we all be moving over to
something at illumos or something?****
** **
I'm going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris to
respond...****
I'm going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts
etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.****
** **
Thanks for any info ...****
_______________________________________________
zfs-discuss mailing list
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Jim Klimov
2013-02-16 23:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hello Cindy,

Are there any plans to preserve the official mailing lists' archives,
or will they go the way of Jive forums and the future digs for bits
of knowledge would rely on alternate mirrors and caches?

I understand that Oracle has some business priorities, but retiring
hardware causes site shutdown? They've gotta be kidding, with all
the buzz about clouds and virtualization ;)

I'd guess, you also are not authorized to say whether Oracle might
permit re-use (re-hosting) of current OpenSolaris.Org materials or
even give away the site and domain for community steering and rid
itself of more black PR by shooting down another public project of
the Sun legacy (hint: if the site does wither and die in community's
hands - it is not Oracle's fault; and if it lives on - Oracle did
something good for karma... win-win, at no price).

Thanks for your helpfulness in the past years,
//Jim
Fred Liu
2013-02-17 04:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Is it possible to replicate the whole opensolaris site to illumos/openindiana/smartos/omnios site in a sub-catalog as archive?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL
Hello Cindy,
Are there any plans to preserve the official mailing lists' archives, or will they
go the way of Jive forums and the future digs for bits of knowledge would rely
on alternate mirrors and caches?
I understand that Oracle has some business priorities, but retiring hardware
causes site shutdown? They've gotta be kidding, with all the buzz about clouds
and virtualization ;)
I'd guess, you also are not authorized to say whether Oracle might permit
re-use (re-hosting) of current OpenSolaris.Org materials or even give away
the site and domain for community steering and rid itself of more black PR by
shooting down another public project of the Sun legacy (hint: if the site does
wither and die in community's hands - it is not Oracle's fault; and if it lives on -
Oracle did something good for karma... win-win, at no price).
Thanks for your helpfulness in the past years, //Jim
_______________________________________________
zfs-discuss mailing list
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Cindy Swearingen
2013-02-18 19:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Jim,

We will be restaging the ZFS community info, most likely on OTN.

The zfs discussion list archive cannot be migrated to the new
list on java.net, but you can pick it up here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/zfs-***@opensolaris.org/

We are looking at other ways to make the zfs discuss list archive
available, possibly as a file download.

Thanks, Cindy
Post by Jim Klimov
Hello Cindy,
Are there any plans to preserve the official mailing lists' archives,
or will they go the way of Jive forums and the future digs for bits
of knowledge would rely on alternate mirrors and caches?
I understand that Oracle has some business priorities, but retiring
hardware causes site shutdown? They've gotta be kidding, with all
the buzz about clouds and virtualization ;)
I'd guess, you also are not authorized to say whether Oracle might
permit re-use (re-hosting) of current OpenSolaris.Org materials or
even give away the site and domain for community steering and rid
itself of more black PR by shooting down another public project of
the Sun legacy (hint: if the site does wither and die in community's
hands - it is not Oracle's fault; and if it lives on - Oracle did
something good for karma... win-win, at no price).
Thanks for your helpfulness in the past years,
//Jim
_______________________________________________
zfs-discuss mailing list
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Tim Cook
2013-02-17 07:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 3:42 PM, cindy swearingen <
Post by cindy swearingen
Hey Ned and Everyone,
This was new news to use too and we're just talking over some options
yesterday
afternoon so please give us a chance to regroup and provide some
alternatives.
This list will be shutdown but we can start a new one on java.net. There
is a huge
ecosystem around Solaris and ZFS, particularly within Oracle. Many of us
are still
here because we are passionate about ZFS, Solaris 11 and even Solaris 10. I
think we have a great product and a lot of info to share.
If you're interested in a rejuvenated ZFS discuss list on java.net, then
We are also considering a new ZFS page in that community as well. Oracle
is very
committed to Solaris and ZFS, but they want to consolidate their community
efforts on
java.net, retire some old hardware, and so on.
If you are an Oracle customer with a support contract and you are using
Solaris and ZFS,
and you want to discuss support issues, you should consider that list as
https://communities.oracle.com/portal/server.pt/community/oracle_solaris_zfs_file_system/526
Thanks, Cindy
While I'm sure many appreciate the offer as I do, I can tell you for me
personally: never going to happen. Why would I spend all that time and
energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning, at
their whim? I'll be sticking to the illumos lists that I'm confident will
be turned over to someone else should the current maintainers decide they
no longer wish to contribute to the project. On the flip side, I think we
welcome all Oracle employees to participate in that list should corporate
policy allow you to.

--Tim
Bryan Horstmann-Allen
2013-02-17 07:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| On 2013-02-17 01:17:58, Tim Cook wrote:
|
| While I'm sure many appreciate the offer as I do, I can tell you for me
| personally: never going to happen. Why would I spend all that time and
| energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
| shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning, at
| their whim? I'll be sticking to the illumos lists that I'm confident will
| be turned over to someone else should the current maintainers decide they
| no longer wish to contribute to the project. On the flip side, I think we
| welcome all Oracle employees to participate in that list should corporate
| policy allow you to.

The current maintainers (Pobox.com, Listbox.com) have a long history with open
source software in the Perl community, both on the CPAN and more recently with
employee time being allocated for work on the interpreter releases.

Pobox is in love with both email _and_ open source.

We're also halfway done migrating our systems from Solaris (which we've run
since 2006) to OmniOS. Like many other companies represented on the zfs list,
Pobox/Listbox is betting on illumos. We'll continue to play nicely.

If something occurs and we can no longer host the services we currently do, I
personally guarantee a cordial handover (more than likely to something Josh and
I set up.)

Furthermore, at my dayjob, we're deploying Joyent's SmartDatacenter in a
non-trivial way, and so I'm also committed to the success of SmartOS.

Finally: There are still a lot of knowledgable people with good ethics doing
good work at Oracle. I'd love to see them on the illumos lists.

(If anyone wants to grump about that, they should ask to borrow that particular
Oracle employees shoes to walk a mile in, before they stick one of their own in
their mouth.)

Cheers.
--
bdha
cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk.
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-17 14:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tim Cook
Why would I spend all that time and
energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning, at
their whim?
From an open source, community perspective, I understand and agree with this sentiment. If OSS projects behave this way, they die. The purpose of an oracle-hosted mailing list is not for the sake of being open in any way. It's for the sake of allowing public discussions about their product. While a certain amount of knowledge will exist with or without the list (people can still download solaris 11 for evaluation purposes and test it out on the honor system) there will be less oracle-specific knowledge in existence without the list. For anyone who's 100% dedicated to OSS and/or illumos and doesn't care about oracle-specific stuff, there's no reason to use that list. But for those of us who are sysadmins, developers using eval-licensed solaris, or in any way not completely closed to the possibility of using oracle zfs / solaris... For those of us, it makes sense.
Guess what, I formerly subscribed to netapp-toasters as well. Until zfs came along and I was able to happily put netapp in my past. Perhaps someday I'll leave zfs behind in favor of btrfs. But not yet.

Guess what also, there is a very active thriving Microsoft forum out there too. And they don't even let you download MS Office or Windows for evaluation purposes - they're even more closed than Oracle in this regard. They learned their lesson about piracy and the honor system. ;-)
Tim Cook
2013-02-17 21:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
Post by Tim Cook
Post by Tim Cook
Why would I spend all that time and
energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning,
at
Post by Tim Cook
their whim?
From an open source, community perspective, I understand and agree with
this sentiment. If OSS projects behave this way, they die. The purpose of
an oracle-hosted mailing list is not for the sake of being open in any way.
It's for the sake of allowing public discussions about their product.
While a certain amount of knowledge will exist with or without the list
(people can still download solaris 11 for evaluation purposes and test it
out on the honor system) there will be less oracle-specific knowledge in
existence without the list. For anyone who's 100% dedicated to OSS and/or
illumos and doesn't care about oracle-specific stuff, there's no reason to
use that list. But for those of us who are sysadmins, developers using
eval-licensed solaris, or in any way not completely closed to the
possibility of using oracle zfs / solaris... For those of us, it makes
sense.
Guess what, I formerly subscribed to netapp-toasters as well. Until zfs
came along and I was able to happily put netapp in my past. Perhaps
someday I'll leave zfs behind in favor of btrfs. But not yet.
Guess what also, there is a very active thriving Microsoft forum out there
too. And they don't even let you download MS Office or Windows for
evaluation purposes - they're even more closed than Oracle in this regard.
They learned their lesson about piracy and the honor system. ;-)
We can agree to disagree.

I think you're still operating under the auspices of Oracle wanting to have
an open discussion. This is patently false. There's a reason why anytime
someone has an issue the response from the Oracle team that posts here is
almost always "open a support ticket and give me the number". And then we
never hear about it again/get the fix unless the end-user happens to come
back and update us. If you think that Oracle is going to change that
stance with a list hosted on Java.net, you're sadly mistaken. Their
(collectively, I'm not speaking of any individual) only goal is to help
paying customers. Period. The way they've decided to go about that is by
hoarding knowledge. I've dealt with the company for over a decade, there
will be no open discussions.

NetApp has historically been open with their user community (although at
times in recent history they have made the mistake of turtling up), which
is why the toasters mailing list did as well as it did. Hell, Dave Hitz
used to be a regular poster. MS forums are active and thriving because
they've got a massive user base full of extremely experienced admins. If
there was an open and free version of the MS products, I'm willing to bet
that you'd find the closed source version a ghost town. For all the
bashing MS has taken throughout history, they're a very open company
relatively speaking. I can both browse their knowledge base and download
hotfixes without any support contract.

If you're going to have to open a support ticket to get help with issues
anyways, why bother with a mailing list/forum? Just go straight to
support. The reason THESE lists have done so well is because the guys who
wrote the code actively participate and give detailed help in the open. If
the only responses that ever came here were the Oracle responses to open up
a ticket beyond anything but basic problems, this place would've died a
long time ago. I think the saddest part of the whole situation is Oracle
is so backwards and broken they don't even allow their employees to tell us
what they aren't allowed to talk to us about. THAT is f-ed.


--Tim
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-17 22:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tim Cook
We can agree to disagree.
I think you're still operating under the auspices of Oracle wanting to have an
open discussion.  This is patently false.  
I'm just going to respond to this by saying thank you, Cindy, Casper, Neil, and others, for all the help over the years. I think we all agree it was cooler when opensolaris was open, but things are beyond our control, so be it. Moving forward, I don't expect Oracle to be any more open than MS or Apple or Google, which is to say, I understand there's stuff you can't talk about, and support you can't give freely or openly. But to the extent you're still able to discuss publicly known things, thank you.
Ian Collins
2013-02-17 22:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
Post by Tim Cook
We can agree to disagree.
I think you're still operating under the auspices of Oracle wanting to have an
open discussion. This is patently false.
I'm just going to respond to this by saying thank you, Cindy, Casper, Neil, and others, for all the help over the years. I think we all agree it was cooler when opensolaris was open, but things are beyond our control, so be it. Moving forward, I don't expect Oracle to be any more open than MS or Apple or Google, which is to say, I understand there's stuff you can't talk about, and support you can't give freely or openly. But to the extent you're still able to discuss publicly known things, thank you.
+1.
--
Ian.
Volker A. Brandt
2013-02-17 22:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
Post by Tim Cook
We can agree to disagree.
I think you're still operating under the auspices of Oracle
wanting to have an open discussion. This is patently false.
I'm just going to respond to this by saying thank you, Cindy,
Casper, Neil, and others, for all the help over the years. I
think we all agree it was cooler when opensolaris was open, but
things are beyond our control, so be it. Moving forward, I don't
expect Oracle to be any more open than MS or Apple or Google,
which is to say, I understand there's stuff you can't talk about,
and support you can't give freely or openly. But to the extent
you're still able to discuss publicly known things, thank you.
+1.
+99999

:-)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANY Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt

"When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead"
Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
2013-02-17 14:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by cindy swearingen
This was new news to use too and we're just talking over some options
yesterday
afternoon so please give us a chance to regroup and provide some
alternatives.
This list will be shutdown but we can start a new one on java.net.
Thanks Cindy - I, for one, am in favor of another list on java.net, because the development is basically split into oracle & illumos. While illumos users might have a small aversion to using another oracle list, I think oracle users will likely have a much larger aversion to using a non-oracle list. So I think there's room for both lists, as well as just cause for both lists.

If at all possible, I would advise preserving the history of these mailing lists. Extremely useful sometimes, when referencing past conversations and stuff, and searching for little tidbits via google.

I would also advise making some sort of announcement on any of the other opensolaris mailing lists that happen to be active.
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